On treocentral windows mobile treo forum there is someone who has a prototype and is using it. He can't get data to work on it but otherwise he's answering questions about the specs.
Thanks, that's an interesting thread over there. I don't understand why anyone would spend two to three times the normal price for a prototype that probably won't work right and even if it does it's not supported. It isn't the final product so the specs may change from that prototype anyway.
I notice a lot of debate on the amount of RAM and ROM the 700w will have. I think there is some confusion or assumptions made without any basis. On my i700 for instance there is 64 MB RAM and 64 MB flash ROM according to the documentation. It is running WM 2003 so what I see on my Programs and Storage part of memory is only talking about the 64MB RAM. I currently show "total main memory" of 59.78 MB of which half is allocated to Storage and half to Programs. This is all RAM. The other 4.22 MB RAM must be used by the system and hidden from the user. The only indication I can see for the amount of ROM is the SafeStore which only shows 1.46 MB as the "Total storage card memory." This however cannot be said to be the "total ROM." The other 62.54 MB ROM must be taken up by the system (WM OS, etc,) and is also hidden from the user.
So, unless I'm mistaken or confused, I don't think there is a way to check the total amount of ROM on your WM phone, only the total available, which doesn't provide much of a clue as to the grand total of ROM in the system. I wish there was a way (3rd party program?) to provide a full accounting of the total amount of RAM and ROM in your device and how it is being allocated in the system as well as for user programs and storage.
Based on all the claims and hype about WM5 and the justification mfg's are making about not enough ROM on certain devices it would be odd and very poor implementation if it didn't have 128MB ROM and 64MB RAM or at the minimum 96MB ROM but that would be odd.
honestly, i think it's a waste to buy the prototype. It doesn't necessarily mean that the real one is going to have the same specs when it comes out. Also, considering the terrible build quality of the early treos whenever they release a new one, I'm surprised the prototype even turns on. I have been a treo user for quite some time and I have to jump ship. It's just ridiculous to have such little memory and STILL NO WIFI. At this point, it's just silly. I know the new treo will get evdo but at this point, the ppc 6700, with its wifi and evdo, just blows new treo away. Being able to do gps, wifi, bluetooth, and voice all at once and having more memory, bigger screen and comparable overall size with the same operating system makes it an easy choice for me. The 6700 is like a laptop in a case the size of a treo (ok, like one millimeter thicker but also one mm shorter). I'm just so tired of the treo being virtually obsolete by the time it reaches the marketplace.
Originally posted by cobrakai honestly, i think it's a waste to buy the prototype. It doesn't necessarily mean that the real one is going to have the same specs when it comes out. Also, considering the terrible build quality of the early treos whenever they release a new one, I'm surprised the prototype even turns on. I have been a treo user for quite some time and I have to jump ship. It's just ridiculous to have such little memory and STILL NO WIFI. At this point, it's just silly. I know the new treo will get evdo but at this point, the ppc 6700, with its wifi and evdo, just blows new treo away. Being able to do gps, wifi, bluetooth, and voice all at once and having more memory, bigger screen and comparable overall size with the same operating system makes it an easy choice for me. The 6700 is like a laptop in a case the size of a treo (ok, like one millimeter thicker but also one mm shorter). I'm just so tired of the treo being virtually obsolete by the time it reaches the marketplace.
The 6700 has a lot going for it. My reasons for wanting to pass on the 6700 and go for the 700w are the following:
1. The 6700 screen is already much smaller than my i700 so the little bit of incremental smallness of the 700w screen is not a deal breaker for me.
2. The slider keyboard of the 6700 is another moving part that can go haywire.
3. One-handed use is pretty non-existent with the 6700. To dial using the keyboard you would have to flip out the keyboard sideways then do some kind of shift or ctl key plus pressing the number keys going across the top row just to dial a number? Not happening one-handed. On the Treo just press the number keys which default to the number when in phone mode (the 6700 may do this too?) and you can easily dial a number one-handed while either driving or walking around.
4. Don't need WiFi as my location has VzW EVDO service.
5. Rather have the regular SD card everything else being equal.
6. The 700w will probably have the exact same amount of memory as the 6700. There is nothing yet that has indicated otherwise.
Are you sure you want this?
For the most part, the illicit images you might find on the web are leaks of these test builds. (And I do mean "illicit." If you're getting a device image from someone other than the MO who sold you the device, the OEM who made the device, or Microsoft, it's stolen goods.) They're images where the OEM or Microsoft did 10% of the work needed to upgrade the device, and are only intended for people willing to put up with poor quality to help us ship a better product.
For instance, one of our OEMs was practicing the WM5 port on one of their WM2003SE phone devices so that they could get it right on their upcoming true WM5 device. We needed to test some aspects of our software that our existing dogfood devices couldn't support, so we bought a bunch of devices from them and asked them to give us that test build. It leaked out, and I've heard that it's available on the web. But, in that build, the camera barely works at all, the battery life is terrible, and the cell radio frequently crashes. These things didn't matter to us, because we were able to test our features and release WM5. But a real user wouldn't want to use it.
I agree with you about the keyboard being a moving part. I guess that it will have a one year warranty and if that goes, I'll try to get service. I never keep these over a year anyway. On not caring about wifi because of EVDO, I agree with that as well but I also have to say, it's weird not to have wifi. Nowadays, wifi is for more than just high speed web access. Cameras and printers are starting to have it. I just think it's weird that it continues to be absent. I guess they can't put everything and the kitchen sink in that small form factor. The 6700 is probably a touch bigger and more of a pocket computer than a phone.
The treo form factor definitely wins big points. That's the main thing that makes the decision so hard.
On the memory, I noticed that you're right and they both have the 64mb. So, from my viewpoint it's form factor vs. wifi and flash for camera. Now I'm just not sure. I'll probably just go with whoever gets to market first for VZW!
I hear ya, it's a tough decision for me too. There is no perfect solution. Whatever you pick will be the right one for you.
I'm one of those technogeeks who really wanted the Universal when it first leaked out. The bigger the better I thought. However I'm starting to get tired of using the stylus and the two handed operation of my i700. So currently my paradigm has shifted towards the smaller and useable WM devices. I figure I might as well try the ultimate in that paradigm, the WM Treo. Who knows, a year from now I'll probably miss something about a bigger phone and get a new CDMA Universal II!
Originally posted by crazyphil The 6700 has a lot going for it. My reasons for wanting to pass on the 6700 and go for the 700w are the following:
1. The 6700 screen is already much smaller than my i700 so the little bit of incremental smallness of the 700w screen is not a deal breaker for me.
2. The slider keyboard of the 6700 is another moving part that can go haywire.
3. One-handed use is pretty non-existent with the 6700. To dial using the keyboard you would have to flip out the keyboard sideways then do some kind of shift or ctl key plus pressing the number keys going across the top row just to dial a number? Not happening one-handed. On the Treo just press the number keys which default to the number when in phone mode (the 6700 may do this too?) and you can easily dial a number one-handed while either driving or walking around.
4. Don't need WiFi as my location has VzW EVDO service.
5. Rather have the regular SD card everything else being equal.
6. The 700w will probably have the exact same amount of memory as the 6700. There is nothing yet that has indicated otherwise.
Currently own the 6700 and the 650, here are my thoughts on your comments:
1. The difference here is that while the I700 has a bigger screen than the one on the 6700, they both fit the same amount of information on the screens due to the identical 320x240 resolution. With the 700W, you will lose 33% of what you would normally see on any other PPC device due to its 240x240 resolution.
2. True, but so far, no problems.
3. Couldn't disagree more. With WM5, one-handed use has been GREATLY improved over WM2003SE. Lack of one-handed use made me not want to use my I730 and instread, use the 650 as my daily phone but now with WM5 on the 6700, I get most (but not all) of the 650's one-handed functionality. I almost didn't even give the 6700 a try because I thought there was no way I could get along without the Treo's exposed keyboard but with MS Voice Command (yes, it costs extra) and WM5, one-handed dialing/navigation/use on the 6700 is a breeze.
4. I thought I wouldn't use wifi either since I'm covered by EV-DO but during the day, things can slow down a bit (network traffic) and its nice to be able to fire up wifi and get things back up to speed again. Gives me something to fall back on as well when I travel to a place with no EV-DO.
5. Agreed.
6. I hope so but Palm has been known for cutting corners to save money. They went with the 160x160 screen and 144mhz processor on the Treo 600 when 320x320 and faster processors were standard on every other device. On the 650, skimped on the memory and it came back to bite them. With the way WM5 handles memory, you would think Palm would be forced to use 128 ROM/64 RAM but I wouldn't put it pass them to try and cut a few corners here.
Make no mistake, I prefer the design of the Treo over the 6700 (I think the exposed keyboard is the way to go) but the 6700 is available now and offers things the WM Treo doesn't so that more than makes up for it in my book.
I don't think I will be "upgrading" to the WM Treo. No flash, no wifi, lower resolution screen, and $45 unlimited data (vs the $10 I'm paying on Sprint), and its a no-brainer for me. However, having owned the Treo 300/600/650, I can see why a WM Treo is the perfect device for many people and as I've learned from owning multiple smarphones, you just can't pass judegment on a device until you've actually used it no matter what the specs say so I guess that leaves the door sligthly open for the WM Treo for me but its not looking good.
Thanks a lot Marty, you did for me what I did for cobrakai, which is making me rethink something I thought I decided already.
Your comments are spot on and, of course, the reason I never mentioned it was because I was trying to convince myself of my decision. I know what I would like to do. If VzW has both of these phones in January I'll order BOTH phones at the same time. Just have them bill me and return one before the trial period is over. Then I can alternate which one is activated and put them both through their paces until I figure out which one I don't want to give up.
The Treo design the biggest draw for me. I still miss my old Treo 600 in that regard. The tie-breaker for me might be Blackberry Connect. I hope one of them has this client in January.
Originally posted by Beryl Helpful analysis, Marty & Phil.
The Treo design the biggest draw for me. I still miss my old Treo 600 in that regard. The tie-breaker for me might be Blackberry Connect. I hope one of them has this client in January.
The 700w (as well as the 6700 I think) will have pushed email through Exchange Server. Not sure if that negates the need for Blackberry Connect in your case but it is an alternative.
More about the screen size: Even though the 6700 has more screen real estate the font size will be smaller due to the higher resolution. So there is a trade off between resolution and readability and I will reserve judgement on this until I can compare the two. To me it just seems that the virtual keyboard will be the main thing cut off which won't be needed with the thumbboard. That might not be totally accurate so again I have to wait and compare. Coming from the big i700, either screen will be hard to get used to for me.
Not sure about the jog dial on the 6700 compared to the 5-way nav on the Treo. Any thoughts on which one creates more "ease of use?"
One more advantage for the 700w, it will have built-in Palm functionality not in the 6700:
Quote:
The Palm Experience on Windows Mobile
During the press conference, the companies demonstrated the Palm experience now brought to life on Windows Mobile. The audience saw a sampling of Palm's award-winning hardware design integrated thoughtfully with a rich Palm software suite, including the ability to:
-- Contact someone quickly from the Today Screen and choose between home, office or mobile numbers, or select email or SMS. With only two letters entered, a customer can find a record from among thousands of contacts;
-- Reach people most often called via photo speed dials visible as a band of images on the Today Screen;
-- Decline a call with a friendly SMS, signaling "In a meeting" or "Talking with the boss" instead of simply ignoring the call; and
-- Rewind, delete or fast-forward through work or cell phone voicemail with familiar and consistent on-screen icons.
Originally posted by Marty 4. I thought I wouldn't use wifi either since I'm covered by EV-DO but during the day, things can slow down a bit (network traffic) and its nice to be able to fire up wifi and get things back up to speed again. Gives me something to fall back on as well when I travel to a place with no EV-DO.
Sounds good. For me there is great EVDO coverage throughout Southern California with VzW so that lessons the need for a backup plan. WiFi would be nice though.
Quote:
I don't think I will be "upgrading" to the WM Treo. No flash, no wifi, lower resolution screen, and $45 unlimited data (vs the $10 I'm paying on Sprint), and its a no-brainer for me.
No flash? The 700w has a 1+ megapixel (1.3 just like the 6700?) camera. Where have you heard that it won't have flash??
[edit]Your sticky thread says it's unknown if the i700 has flash or not [/edit]
__________________
Phil
Last edited by crazyphil : 10-25-2005 at 11:22 PM.
Originally posted by crazyphil The 700w (as well as the 6700 I think) will have pushed email through Exchange Server. Not sure if that negates the need for Blackberry Connect in your case but it is an alternative.
More about the screen size: Even though the 6700 has more screen real estate the font size will be smaller due to the higher resolution. So there is a trade off between resolution and readability and I will reserve judgement on this until I can compare the two. To me it just seems that the virtual keyboard will be the main thing cut off which won't be needed with the thumbboard. That might not be totally accurate so again I have to wait and compare. Coming from the big i700, either screen will be hard to get used to for me.
Not sure about the jog dial on the 6700 compared to the 5-way nav on the Treo. Any thoughts on which one creates more "ease of use?"
One more advantage for the 700w, it will have built-in Palm functionality not in the 6700:
I'm still on the fence but one leg is firmly planted on the 700w side.
For the builtin Exchange push email on WM5 devices, they require a piece of MS software that is only available through OEMs (possibly through a ROM update). So for the 6700, I will have to wait for Sprint to release this patch/software. Not sure if the 700w will come with this already installed.
On the Treo's D-pad vs. the 6700's joy stick: if given a choice, I prefer the Treo's d-pad but that's just personal preference. The joystick on the 6700 is solid and works very, very well, no issues with it.
Originally posted by crazyphil
No flash? The 700w has a 1+ megapixel (1.3 just like the 6700?) camera. Where have you heard that it won't have flash??
[edit]Your sticky thread says it's unknown if the i700 has flash or not [/edit]
Looking at the engadget pictures, I don't see a flash, only the standard self-portrait mirror that the 650 had. I realize that is a prototype so it might change but Palm hasn't included flashes before on the Treos and I see no evidence of that changing anytime soon. Hopefully I'm wrong though...
Originally posted by crazyphil The 700w (as well as the 6700 I think) will have pushed email through Exchange Server. Not sure if that negates the need for Blackberry Connect in your case but it is an alternative.
We use Domino Notes so I need Blackberry Connect or continue to use SEVEN or Wireless Stinks er, Sync
After having owned the treo 600, PPC-6700 and treo 650, I think the PPC-6700 camera is over rated. The camera in my treo 600 was just plain terrible. The camera in the PPC-6700 is okay, but still not great. Even the flash doesn't do much to help. The camera in the treo 650 is pretty good considering it is without flash and only 0.3 mp.
I traded down from the ppc-6700 and back over to a treo 650 because I prefer the treo style one-handed use, but was surprised to find that the treo 650 does a pretty good job with it's camera.
Anyway, I figured the treo 700w will probably do as well, even if no flash is included.
Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Looking at the engadget pictures, I don't see a flash, only the standard self-portrait mirror that the 650 had. I realize that is a prototype so it might change but Palm hasn't included flashes before on the Treos and I see no evidence of that changing anytime soon. Hopefully I'm wrong though...
Originally posted by txbonds After having owned the treo 600, PPC-6700 and treo 650, I think the PPC-6700 camera is over rated. The camera in my treo 600 was just plain terrible. The camera in the PPC-6700 is okay, but still not great. Even the flash doesn't do much to help. The camera in the treo 650 is pretty good considering it is without flash and only 0.3 mp.
I traded down from the ppc-6700 and back over to a treo 650 because I prefer the treo style one-handed use, but was surprised to find that the treo 650 does a pretty good job with it's camera.
Anyway, I figured the treo 700w will probably do as well, even if no flash is included.
I think the camera in the 6700 is very good and most of the reviews on this phone seem to agree with this sentiment. For what it is (a 0.3 mp camera), the camera on the 650 is quite good as well but in IMO, is still lacking when compared to the one on the 6700. The difference is most apparent when you view the pictures taken with each respective device on an actual computer. Pictures look great on the devices themselves but when viewing on a desktop, the difference is most apparent to me. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I'm not saying the PPC-6700 pictures are bad........ just not that great of an improvement over a 0.3mp camera. There is a lot of hype in mp increase and I guess I just don't see that much difference personally. Now if we were talking about going from a 0.3mp treo 650 to a 5mp camera like a point and shoot with a real burst flash, then I think the camera in the PPC-6700 would be something to crow about.
Again though, when comparing it to other cell phone cameras I think the 6700 camera is very nice, just not quite what one is led to believe from the reviews and specs.
I'm not saying the PPC-6700 pictures are bad........ just not that great of an improvement over a 0.3mp camera. There is a lot of hype in mp increase and I guess I just don't see that much difference personally. Now if we were talking about going from a 0.3mp treo 650 to a 5mp camera like a point and shoot with a real burst flash, then I think the camera in the PPC-6700 would be something to crow about.
Again though, when comparing it to other cell phone cameras I think the 6700 camera is very nice, just not quite what one is led to believe from the reviews and specs.
I'm not saying that you were saying that the 6700's pictures are bad, only that I feel the "hype" given to the 6700's camera is warranted. I think you have to look at it in the context of a cell phone camera. I think when these reviewers comment on the camera, they assume that everyone will know these cameras are in no way designed to compete with a regular, stand alone cameras. Instead, when they say things like "[the camera is great]" "or "[pictures taken with the 6700's camera are clear with vivid color]", they should be taken within the context of a cell phone camera, that is for a cell phone camera, the 6700's camera takes great pictures and as far as cell phone camera go, its one of the best that is currently available. They aren't trying to say the 6700's camera is great by digital camera standards, only that its great by cell phone camera standards. So I think if you read the reviews with that in mind, you might be more likely to agree with their comments on the camera. You have to be realistic in what to expect from a cell phone camera. Maybe a newbie who sees 0.3 vs 1.3 will be disappointed when they compare pics but for someone who is familiar with megapixel numbers and knows what pictures taken at the various resolutions are suppose to look like, that person will have realistic expectations and be able to appreciate the real improvements the 6700's camera brings to the table.
with respect to the camera, I am a bit bummed that there's no flash on the prototype of the treo. I'm not expecting to replace my digital camera with the phone but it would be nice, if out to dinner or out for the evening if the camera didn't become virtually useless. I don't want the "perfect device" but for the money we're spending, it's a bit annoying when the manufacturers leave out something that's a basic industry standard. The samsung i730 doesn't even have a camera option! It's also annoying when someone with a phone that costs $300 less than ours has better functionality (like the new samsung cameraphone with flash).
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