Glad you guys have made up. I was thinking about recommending you two go to counselling.
__________________
-Jay The Fine Print:Nothing in this post (or any of my other posts) is intended to constitute legal advice or the establishment of an attorney-client relationship. For purposes of this forum, I'm just another nerd like you. :-)
Thanks for all the nice comments/offers. I definitely love my pn820 (best phone I've ever had), but, I am always willing to help out. The i760 has potential, especially with the keypad on the outside. I think it will be even better if we can get wm7 on it.
,Dave
I'm glad i'm not the only one "who thinks it's the the Best Phone".
I'm looking forward to any /fixes / Imrovements/ that may come about to the I730 (hint hint) or the upcoming I760.
I have to be careful what i say, it may be taken the wrong way.
Do you have those three phones concurrently or is that a sequential update to the present?
Mark,
You are right.
Tim,
You are right too.
A while ago Mike was getting upset about people demanding or expecting help from him. He offered to contract out his services for personal service on an hourly basis. I doubt that he had many takers as most people come here for free advice. There is no way that you could compensate these guys for their hundreds or thousands of hours that they have dedicated to these forums. Perhaps they get personal satisfaction knowing that they are doing the job that Verizon otherwise should be doing (tech support, CS, etc.).
So...I think a token of appreciation that would defray the cost of upgrading to an i-760 is appropriate. So is the exploration of revenue sharing with Convergent. If they had the time and inclination (not that they do), Mike and Dave could start their own forum. Where would that leave PDAPH? I am sure they would get along just fine, but there would be a large faction that would follow Mike and Dave.
Can't think of two more worthy recipients. After all, we each expect to gain tremendously from their research!! If everyone who voted kicked in $20 they'd have the phones and we'd be off to the races. By the way, happy belated bday to MRailing
Do you have those three phones concurrently or is that a sequential update to the present?
Mark,
You are right.
Tim,
You are right too.
A while ago Mike was getting upset about people demanding or expecting help from him. He offered to contract out his services for personal service on an hourly basis. I doubt that he had many takers as most people come here for free advice. There is no way that you could compensate these guys for their hundreds or thousands of hours that they have dedicated to these forums. Perhaps they get personal satisfaction knowing that they are doing the job that Verizon otherwise should be doing (tech support, CS, etc.).
So...I think a token of appreciation that would defray the cost of upgrading to an i-760 is appropriate. So is the exploration of revenue sharing with Convergent. If they had the time and inclination (not that they do), Mike and Dave could start their own forum. Where would that leave PDAPH? I am sure they would get along just fine, but there would be a large faction that would follow Mike and Dave.
I have all three phones sitting in front of me. (i was holding them all).
The PN820 is the Demo that i'm using. My I730 is my Phone that if i was not demo'ing the pn820, would be my phone. the I700 is now my PDA for doing the Paperless GEOCACHING.
I would have my I600 on teh list, but it's at work and not in the
pile here.
Not all 3 phones have their own account, but can be activated within minutes.
I think it is time to declare success. There is clearly a lot of support for donating to MR and SD. Let's not let our discussion delay doing the right thing. I'd like to invite MR and SD to post there paypal account information here for convenience, and suggest a donation of $10 to each of them.
I think it is time to declare success. There is clearly a lot of support for donating to MR and SD. Let's not let our discussion delay doing the right thing. I'd like to invite MR and SD to post there paypal account information here for convenience, and suggest a donation of $10 to each of them.
I briefly talked to tsatryan about it, and I want to talk to SD about it. It might be easier to have one PayPal account and split the proceeds. This will be easier to deal with, and reduce the PayPal fees on each donation. Once I talk to SD about it we can see where it goes. Just to keep the checks and balances in order on the donations, if we do use one PayPal account, it was my suggestion to tsatryan that I list the date/time, amount, and the last 4 digits of the Payment ID. I would NOT list the name of the person donating, as I know some would not want it listed, but this way, people can see that it has shown up and is accounted for.
So once I chat with SD, and find out what's going on, then we will post one or two links to PayPal.
__________________
-Michael
Need help setting up your i730/i830 or other WM2003/WM5 Phone, as well as the other hacks I have done, check out the MRailing Guides and Links
I am sorry for the delay guys. As was mentioned, life has dealt me a few struggles as of late, which I won't get into here. If I understand the debate here, its a matter of whether the moderators should be compensated or not. Its a good question, and one that I think we could discuss until the end of time and never reach a conclusion on. The bottom line is that forums are largely volunteer run organizations.... no service level agreements... no commitments... nothing other than extreme interest in a hobby motivating a group of people to have fun learning and sharing about it. When forums become a paid subscrition entity, everything changes... if you have paid for a service, then you are entitled to that service. That means that the service needs to be available per stated service levels, that the service must escrow funds in order to be able to deliver the service over the period that was subscribed (someone mentioned annual subscriptions), etc. In short, everything changes.
As many of you know, I have been trying to get a photography business off the ground and thought long and hard about buying a very popular professional photography forum that came up for sale about a year ago. I talked to the owner and found that his selling price was a extremely high (way beyond anything I could afford without taking on a second mortgate), but moreover I learned that besides myself, there were two other interested parties... both of whom intended to turn the forum into a "for fee" forum. Prior to that time, there had been no advertising run on the forum, and there were no fees. Once the new owner stepped in (obviously not me), they immediately closed public access to a lot of it, and or put up annoying incentives, to get people to join the subscriptions. There was a lot of pushback from the membership, especially because it wasn't an existing member he bought it. Over time I don't believe they have generated a lot of income, and as far as I can tell they are NOT paying their moderators. They have made the site pretty annoying to visit if you aren't a paid member, and I've noticed a sharp decrease in traffic. If you visit now and aren't a member, you only get to see one line of each post in some of the forums... followedy by a "join and you can see the whole post" statement. In my case, the result was that I was pretty active there before the new plan was introduced, and I just stopped going there afterwards... there are other "free" options available.
When I started this forum, I decided that I would EITHER go with a donation based approach, OR, go with advertising.... but not both. I have stuck with that for the 6 years that the site has existed. There have been a number of occaisions when people wanted to offer donations to help support the site, and I have turned them down because of this policy. I don't believe its fair to do both.
Back to the paid moderator question. I believe that all the moderators have professional jobs where they make handsome salaries. If we were to go to an employee relationship, we would need to be able to compensate them enough to get enough of their time to make sure they were always available when they were needed. None of them are going to put any level of importance on this site if their day job, family, or any other priority above the site has an issue. So what happens if you are paying for the service, and one of the moderators goes on vacation for a month, or his dayjob sends him away for a 3 month project out of town? Unless we are paying him more than his day job, then I'm guessing we won't be seeing them for a while. That happens from time to time... we'll have an active moderator that disappears for a few months, then reappears with a different phone. This site doesn't now, nor will it likely ever generate enough income to pay salaries to people to the level that would be needed in order to operate in a manner that would make it a "service provider" type site. My prediction is that if we went to a fee based system and had paid employees operate it, we'd be out of business in less than a month. Number one, our traffic would drop off dramatically, resulting in diminishing returns on any fees collected. Second, I can't even imagine that we'd get anyone to work for what we'd be able to pay. I only know personally of one large forum that is operated by paid employees, although I'm sure there are more, and its a topic that is much more widely appealing than PDAPhones. I'm sure there are others, but not a lot that are stand alone operations. I guess my point is that when you go to a business model like what was described, it changes everything in the equation and I don't think it would hold water. Even if it did, I don't have the time to take on something that big... as has already been mentioned, I'm going through some personal stuff right now that makes me unable to spend as much time here as I'd like. That could happen to any moderator tomorrow.
The other thing that has been considered is to offer a subscription that gave some usability enhancements to the site... such as no-ads, PDA version of site, vendor discounts, etc. I have thought about this and not ever gotten to a point where I thought it would be worthwhile to do. One of the biggest reasons is I really don't want to be in a situation where I owe the users a level of service. That carries with it a 24x7 commitment to do things that is beyond what a forum typically owes its visitors.
Back to the situation with the phones for mods discussion. I don't see anything wrong with passing the plate to get a phone for a mod that is looking to work on learning it and fixing problems in it. I believe it was done before. BUT, you have to know that the moderators are still not obligated to deliver anything. Say you bought mrailing a new phone, and then two weeks later something came up in his life that required his attention... well guess what, I'm going to wager that he'd be jumping on that. So if there is going to be a "donation" made to buy them something, there need to be no strings attached. I would certainly support such a donation approach, and I'd be happy to help close the gap if less is given then needed. I believe the offer I made before was to match all the gifts made by members, up to half the value of the device.
Lets try to get this thread back on topic, as it really wasn't intended by the original poster to lobby for a fee based site with paid employees.
Why not buy moderators no-strings-attached phones, if the site makes enough that you can. It's not like it'd be a weekly or monthly thing.
I'm still using a 6600 if that tells you anything. I'll talk to the mods about the suggestion and see what we can come up with. We are just starting on a bit of team brainstorming to try and improve some things around here.
I fully support having the option of donating a small sum of money ($10 via paypal sounded good) to MR and SD to work on the 760 as they see fit. No strings attached, good faith, I expect nothing in return, and it's OPTIONAL.
Both of these gentleman have been very helpful in countless ways vis. the i-730. All of us would agree. I understand this might create some interesting dynamics, but it seems there is support from others that this is a meritorious activity. Maybe cap the limit at a certain amount (= estimated cost of 2 phones) then remove the paypal link - kind of like setting a goal at a walkathon
My two cents - I've had my I730 since it came out and have benefited from this site and am happy to give the suggested donation to enjoy the support when I get my new I760. Please keep doing what your doing!
Thanks, Mike, for your very detailed and clear post about the suggestion that was made within this thread, although not a part of the reason for the thread. I understand exactly what you are saying, and it makes perfect sense.
So.... back to what this thread is all about... we have, as of this post, 75 people indicating a willingness to make a contribution to purchasing two i760s, one each for MRailing and SuperDave.
Just to keep things clear, there will be one fund, the amount of which will be divided equally between the two, to allow the purchase of the phone. Depending upon the amount each person donates, we should be approaching a level sufficient to accomplish the task. Of course, the specific price hasn't yet been released, so we can only make guesses based upone past VZW history. With Mike's kind offer of potentially matching funds to make the purchase, we will be even in better shape.
As soon as I receive the necessary information, I will add a post to this thread, indicating that I have edited the first post of the thread with the donation link and information.
My intention will be, as MRailing has likewise indicated, that all contributions are welcome, regardless of the size. Further, names of individuals will not be revealed. This will not become a venue to boast of one's giving. And, as soon as sufficient funds have been secured, the link will be removed.
tsatryan and I talked the other day as we were trying to hammer out the best way to do this, especially since the price is still up in the air. I haven't heard back from SuperDave, so tsatryan and I determined this course of action might be best.
We will do one PayPal account to do the collection, and with each donation, we will post the Date/Time, Amount, last three digits of the transaction ID, and a running total in a thread. Since this is in one account, and you all are donating to both SD and myself (a gracious gift), I felt some kind of audit trail was needed. We aren't going to post usernames, as some people won't want them posted, and we don't want this in to a "I gave this amount and I expect something in return".
I intentionally stayed out of this thread because I wanted to have no influence in it, and from what I can see, as both suggested by tsatryan and Convergent above, think about this donation being a gift for what HAS been done, and what CAN be done in the future. We have no idea of any drawbacks to this phone, or potential problems that will be encountered, and if any of them can be fixed, so that's up in the air. As previously mentioned, you shouldn't think of your donation as a binding agreement that SD and myself will be here to fix everything, or answer all of your questions, or be your personal tech person. I have every intention of sticking around, doing the same thing I have been doing, answering questions, and trying to help out where possible, and organizing the FAQ.
So once I get a page together for donation and some simple instructions we will get it posted sometime this week. If and when this is done, and if we are short on funds of personally donated money, then whatever help Convergent/PDAPhoneHome.com gives us is greatly appreciated. The only thing we haven't discussed is if the price comes in lower than expected (the i730 was released at $719.99 for full retail). If it's lower than expected and funds are still left in the account, and since this donation was to purchase SD and myself an i760, I think the remaining funds should be given to someone else, a lottery of sorts. So if funds are greater than the two devices, we can decide on some items like MicroSD cards, screen protectors, etc. and we can have some type of lottery, and since the funds are in my PayPal account, I will purchase those items and send them to the winner. But I think we can pass this bridge if the donating funds skyrocket.
So I think it's safe to say, that we have to shoot for a fairly high number ($1400) to start, but if we have money above and beyond once the i760 is finally released, then the remaining funds will be given back to a lucky person (or few), probably using Mobihand (one of the site sponsors here). This way we keep it fair...
If people object to this, let me know, as I am still not trying to overstep my boundaries, but just trying to re-cap the discussion here, and the ones that tsatryan and I have had in the last couple of days.
__________________
-Michael
Need help setting up your i730/i830 or other WM2003/WM5 Phone, as well as the other hacks I have done, check out the MRailing Guides and Links
Not to get off on a rant here, but... I have had my 730 since the day it was released to b2b customers and you really couldnt put a $ amount on the assistance I have received from this site. The device wouldnt be close to the device I now have and love without this forum and the great people whom make up it's community. Having said that, the problem I have with the idea of donating (money or a 760 or whatever) to mrailing and SD is this... mrailing unquestionably is in a league of his own from a time invested/help given stand point. After mrailing, though, it gets tricky. Not to diminish what SD has done for the 730 thread, but there are others who have also invested countless hours developing tweaks and hacks. What about IvanLasston? Sleeve? Just to name a few. There are several others who are deserving for their forum contributions.
This is what I suggest... lets raise as much $ as possible. -Not cap contributions, not have a "end goal" of $1400, rather lets have $1400 be the goal by the 760 release. Once the 760 is released, this forum is going to be nuts. -It reminds me of March Madness... Heck, I'll probably take a day or two off work just to watch all the fireworks, and get my 760 headed in the right direction! -There will be several contributors, but a few "main" people will shine. I suggest we collectively "reward" as many of these cats as possible. Lets take care of mrailing first and foremost, but then lets take the remaining funds and distribute based on their contribution to the initial set up of the device. -Mrailing could decide who gets what. If it is anything like how the 730 was, it will be pretty obvious who really sets themselves apart in the initial phases of the 760. I'm sure mrailing could tell us right now who were the "main" contributors of the 730. -Lets continue to "pass the plate" at least through the initial stages of the device, when forum viewership is at a frenzy, and see who shines! On each "set up" type thread, mrailing could put a link to the paypal account and a brief description of where the funds will go. Of course that just my opinion, I could be wrong...
Last edited by brassMONKEY : 05-01-2007 at 04:48 AM.
Convergent, you’re a smart business man. Looks like you just dodged another bullet.
I believe that you have moderators that are dedicated to specific phone lists. This site is going to get more and more traffic as phones become more converged. I think you could use some of the money that you’re receiving from Ads to purchase the phone for the mod that is the main person for that list.
However, Convergent stated, he will match what we as members donate. Therefore I am…..well “comfortable” with this for the release of the i760.
tsatryan,
I am sorry for causing some grief for your effort I was just trying to do the right thing for Mrailing and others that contribute so much to this board. Not that you aren’t either but I was looking long term.
I look forward to contributing and getting this effort off the ground!
Mark
__________________
VZW, It's 2009! Time to embrace technology, not suppress it. - oops too late I've moved on over to the iPhone w/ AT$T!
This is going to come across the wrong way, but.........
I have been a member of another forum (not related to phones) for many years now. And that forum was, as are most, dedicated to helping people with issues on specific subjects. It got to the point where that forum grew to tremendous numbers, the bandwidth and server requirements became tremendous as well. So they started a pay-per-yearly basis to enter certain parts of the forums. The "general" areas didn't chage as far as access, but they opened more detailed areas and also opened a "for sale" area that you had to pay for to access. The information WELL paid for the cost of the forum over there, and I can only imagine that would be the same here. I am not one who could match what others donate by any means, so I'm not trying to get everyone to cough up funds, but this may be a way to solve these issues today and in the future.
The reason I said that this would come across bad, is because I remember the day that the "other" forum told me that we were going to have to pay for these "extra" areas and how I felt about it. But after the help and knowledge I received and continue to receive from that forum, I find it all worth the small amount paid.
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