I am intentionally trying to stay out of the discussion of this topic, for obvious reasons, but felt I should chime in.
I think the course of charging fees on a site like this would be voluntary, so that if you did pay, you would have a low ad version of the site, maybe just Google Ads and that's it, or Ad free. The information here on the forums, can be discussed anywhere and going to a pay only version wouldn't be that great for traffic, but offering an ad free version, and possibly increasing the adds a bit for the "free/ad" version, which still keeping it clean would work, if people don't want to pay, they don't have to, and everything is still "free", you just get more benefits if you pay.
As far as contributions/donations go for software created or stuff like the guides. It's slim to none. SD can probably vouch for this, as well as Sarcasmra and probably Dimension too. Out of the 7700+ Downloads of the Icon Hack, zero people have donated anything back to me (since posting the Vista WMDC Icon Hack). For the few times I have posted a donation link, in the various guides and write-ups, I have received around $160 total, $100 of which went to pay for WinCE CAB Manager, a software I used/use to create the cab files for our device, and the rest has gone towards software for the i730 (and paypal fees). So out of the thousands of Downloads of the MRailing Phone Tools, the 70,000+ views of Setup Guides, the 7700+ Downloads of the Icon hack for Vista, and others, donations are a great concept, but in the "free" world of the internet, they don't work well. I include my link for those few that feel generous and helped by my contributions, and not to make money off of it, but in turn to try and do more for the community here. If I wanted to make money, I would charge right off the bat, but then that gets in to the whole "tax" thing too...
I am not trying to convince people, just providing information to stuff brought up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zucchero
Although you math is great, this is what usually kills a newsgroup. Once money comes into play, expectation changes. Right now, we get gifts as they come along, with no rush. If somebody does post a nice little toy (like Superdave's goodies), people will contribute $5 or $10 as a token of appreciation.
However, when money starts changing hands, then things become nasty. "Where is my....." or "How long does it takes" or "What the hell is this." becomes the new mantra, and it isn't pretty. Further, membership drops like a stone, and people will bail to other newsgroups where things are free. It may not be right, but it happens all the time.
John
P.S. Sorry for the "hell" remark tsatryan. Of course the word "satan" is embedded in your name. (I'm kidding, I'm kidding...I feel like I will burn for that one).
__________________
-Michael
Need help setting up your i730/i830 or other WM2003/WM5 Phone, as well as the other hacks I have done, check out the MRailing Guides and Links
You're right that many forums have managed to twist and bungle fee-based initiatives. Among losers, history's most spectacular flameout was, of course, AOL.
But ALL tiered-service failures have one thing in common: bad business decisions. As tsatryan might offer at a Sunday service near you, they typically flow from flirtation with the Seven Sisters of Digital Damnation: Luxuria, Gula, Avaritia, Acedia, Ira, Invidia, and Superbia.
Rest assured, this can be done without denying non-paying members anything to which they feel "entitled"...for showing up.
I am intentionally trying to stay out of the discussion of this topic, for obvious reasons, but felt I should chime in.
I think the course of charging fees on a site like this would be voluntary, so that if you did pay, you would have a low ad version of the site, maybe just Google Ads and that's it, or Ad free. The information here on the forums, can be discussed anywhere and going to a pay only version wouldn't be that great for traffic, but offering an ad free version, and possibly increasing the adds a bit for the "free/ad" version, which still keeping it clean would work, if people don't want to pay, they don't have to, and everything is still "free", you just get more benefits if you pay.
As far as contributions/donations go for software created or stuff like the guides. It's slim to none. SD can probably vouch for this, as well as Sarcasmra and probably Dimension too. Out of the 7700+ downloads of the Icon Hack, zero people have donated anything back to me (since posting the Vista WMDC Icon Hack). For the few times I have posted a donation link, in the various guides and write-ups, I have received around $160 total, $100 of which went to pay for WinCE CAB Manager, a software I used/use to create the cab files for our device, and the rest has gone towards software for the i730 (and paypal fees). So out of the thousands of downloads of the MRailing Phone Tools, the 70,000+ views of Setup Guides, the 7700+ downloads of the Icon hack for Vista, and others, donations are a great concept, but in the "free" world of the internet, they don't work well. I include my link for those few that feel generous and helped by my contributions, and not to make money off of it, but in turn to try and do more for the community here. If I wanted to make money, I would charge right off the bat, but then that gets in to the whole "tax" thing too...
I am not trying to convince people, just providing information to stuff brought up.
I agree with John (zucherro) and Michael (mrailing). If you start charging, you need to be careful of what people will expect. For example, if I must pay for a program, I will be upset about bugs and release dates than if the I can voluntarily contribute to pay for the program. When people publish their software and make it available for free, I am more "forgiving" of any bugs or release delays because the publisher is offering it to me for free and so I am grateful for whatever I get. In other words, if I pay for something, I believe/expect I am paying for a bug-free product that will be supported whereas if I don't pay for something all I am going to expect is that it is not spyware or malware, nothing more.
I like Michael's idea of paying to have an ad-free forum. I've seen this done on other sites, and it's nice if the price isn't too great. I'd be willing to pay $40-50 per year for an ad-free site, especially if I know the money is go to help the moderators who currently are volunteering their time. Another possible "perk" of paid membership might be discounts on software sold in the store portion of this site.
Just my two cents for whatever they're worth.
__________________
-Jay The Fine Print:Nothing in this post (or any of my other posts) is intended to constitute legal advice or the establishment of an attorney-client relationship. For purposes of this forum, I'm just another nerd like you. :-)
I was the one that started the original thread on the 730. IIRC, once SD started taking donations, it ony took a day or two before he had more than enough money for a phone. I was impressed with the way you guys came through! I don't see a problem getting enough cash to do two of them. I'm not going the 760 route though. I am still extremely pleased with my 730 and Asurion just replaced it for me and this thing looks and performs like a brand new one now. You guys will need to convince me I need to upgrade it after the big release
While all these comments and ideas regarding the site here are fine, and perhaps would be valuable for future consideration, the point of this thread (yep, I'm trying to keep this on topic) is simply for us to easily pool our resources and get two of these phones at the earliest possible time to put them into the hands of the two people who have without question assisted each and every person in this forum the most.
You may look at contributing some minimal sum - $10, $20, whatever - as a way of expressing thanks and gratitude to them for all that they have done for us with the i730, and in anticipation of what they could and would do for our next phone.
While all these comments and ideas regarding the site here are fine, and perhaps would be valuable for future consideration, the point of this thread (yep, I'm trying to keep this on topic) is simply for us to easily pool our resources and get two of these phones at the earliest possible time to put them into the hands of the two people who have without question assisted each and every person in this forum the most.
You may look at contributing some minimal sum - $10, $20, whatever - as a way of expressing thanks and gratitude to them for all that they have done for us with the i730, and in anticipation of what they could and would do for our next phone.
Good point, Pastor Tim. I suggest that you edit your first post in this thread and add the PayPal links for SuperDave and MRailing to make it easy for folks to donate. This way, people don't have to search other threads to find SD's and Michael's PayPal links.
__________________
-Jay The Fine Print:Nothing in this post (or any of my other posts) is intended to constitute legal advice or the establishment of an attorney-client relationship. For purposes of this forum, I'm just another nerd like you. :-)
Good point, Pastor Tim. I suggest that you edit your first post in this thread and add the PayPal links for SuperDave and MRailing to make it easy for folks to donate. This way, people don't have to search other threads to find SD's and Michael's PayPal links.
That was exactly what my plan was. I intended to let this thread operate for a couple days (it's only a day old as I write this) to allow the poll to indicate that there was sufficient interest (which I anticipated there would be.)
Following that time, I wanted to get the appropriate information from MRailing and SuperDave to add a contribution link in the first post. I would expect to get to that point on either Friday or Saturday.
Also, just so everyone knows, your response in the poll is completely anonymous. Likewise, any gifts given through the eventual link will be anonymous to everyone (including me) with the exception of the two recipients. They will obviously know who has given to them. But, no one is going to impress anyone in the forum by their generosity or lack therof. That's not what this is about.
I think you are doing MRailing and SD a disservice by doing this.
I would like to see them get real compensation for their efforts. If we go thru with this there will be no incentive for the site owner to get serious with compensating these guys.
If the owner of the site comes back and says that he will not compensate them then I will be the person with the largest donation. However until then lI suggest we wait for a reply from the site owner.
__________________
VZW, It's 2009! Time to embrace technology, not suppress it. - oops too late I've moved on over to the iPhone w/ AT$T!
Mark, I agree with you in principle. But, that isn't going to change things that fast. What I am proposing is something that can be done without any ramifications. It's just buying a phone.
But, the proposition that you are making is something that is far more sweeping, the implications of which would be too complex for Convergent to even be able to consider on a quick basis.
Talk to Convergent about it if you want. Start a new thread about that very thing if you want.
Mark, I agree with you in principle. But, that isn't going to change things that fast. What I am proposing is something that can be done without any ramifications. It's just buying a phone.
But, the proposition that you are making is something that is far more sweeping, the implications of which would be too complex for Convergent to even be able to consider on a quick basis.
Talk to Convergent about it if you want. Start a new thread about that very thing if you want.
In the meantime, I just want to get this done.
OK I have already posted a message to Convergent in the web site improvment area on this matter but I still think this is a self serving effort and it's not going to get it in their hands any faster.
A phone to any one like MRailing and SD is nothing compared to the actual compensation they should be getting.
__________________
VZW, It's 2009! Time to embrace technology, not suppress it. - oops too late I've moved on over to the iPhone w/ AT$T!
OK I have already posted a message to Convergent in the web site improvment area on this matter but I still think this is a self serving effort and it's not going to get it in their hands any faster.
A phone to any one like MRailing and SD is nothing compared to the actual compensation they should be getting.
We are going back and forth, saying the same thing over and over. So, to repeat, I agree - the work that at least one moderator (MRailing) puts into this forum is certainly worth FAR more than the price of a phone. I can't address any of the other forums on pdaphonehome.com. I don't know how much effort any other moderater puts in. But the answer to that question would be, at a minimum, what Convergent would need to consider before he could even begin to entertain your proposal. Your suggestion simply does not allow for examining the big picture. And, only Convergent can speak to that.
What MRailing does for our forum is, quite frankly, exceptional. It goes beyond what just being a moderator is about. A moderator, as I understand it, is someone who makes sure that the forums are run smoothly, with no objectionable content, with things staying on topic, etc. However, MRailing does all that - and simultaneously provides superior tech support and assistance to nearly every person that has visited the forums. He has written entire manuals on set up. But, you all know this - it doesn't need my rehearsing it.
Is what MRailing does worth more? Absolutely. And, I can't speak for him, but I beleive that he does what he does because he loves doing it. He didn't start as the moderator in here for financial gain. Which isn't to say that he doesn't need the finances. It's just a simple fact that he does what he is doing - in this forum - for the satisfaction of doing the best he can.
Now, I have said all that - multiple times now. And I am leaving it at that.
But, I am a bit put-off at a continual posting about doing something different, or that this doesn't adequately compensate, etc etc. And, your last post, Mark, was edited from originally just saying "Self serving........". I don't know who or what you think is being self-served. I am gaining nothing from this at all, other than the aggravation of posting these follow ups. Neither Mike nor Dave has asked me to do this.
I simply know how much I have appreciated all that the two of them have done to make the i730 what it is for us. And if there is anything self-serving about all of this, it is that I would love to see that assistance continue. And, I remember that because SuperDave had been so helpful with the i700 - and I was a part of that forum, too - that the effort was made to get him the next phone (the i730) so he would be able to once again supply that help. And he did. The forum chipped in, with an effort much like this, and he was purchased a phone. And, I believe that Convergent matched the funds that the forum raised, helping to enable that.
So, if you want to be a part of this simple suggestion, then fine. If not, then don't. But, can we stop this off-topic back and forth about the value of MRailing's assistance, which we both agree is worth far more than the phone that I have proposed we assist in purchasing. This is just a simple effort.
What do you do on birthdays at your house? If someone gives you a gift, do you look at them, and tell them and the others in the room that you are worth far more than the gift? I certainly hope not. You say a sincere thank you, and receive the gift.
So, let's just give them a gift, ok? Is this really all that complicated?
tsatryan, I think Mark_E Mark_A_k's point is that by taking donations a buying these guys a few hundred dollar phone will be counterproductive in getting these guys fairly compensated. Simply put, PDAPH should be paying their mods and by collecting for a new phone is a "slap in the face" to what these guys should be getting (percentage of the revenue the site generates from advertising) and could jeopardize their chance for adequate compensation.
Why not start a petition to get mrailing and other great mods a "piece of the PDAPH action"? Great idea getting these paid, though. Thanks for starting this thread.
tsatryan, I think Mark_E Mark_A_k's point is that by taking donations a buying these guys a few hundred dollar phone will be counterproductive in getting these guys fairly compensated. Simply put, PDAPH should be paying their mods and by collecting for a new phone is a "slap in the face" to what these guys should be getting (percentage of the revenue the site generates from advertising) and could jeopardize their chance for adequate compensation.
Why not start a petition to get mrailing and other great mods a "piece of the PDAPH action"? Great idea getting these paid, though. Thanks for starting this thread.
brassMONKEY, KBAM and others that get what I was saying.
I have started a thread here:
My concern is that MRailing and SD have already said that they where planning on getting the device on their own. I didn’t think that they need assistance in purchasing the units. So they only benefit in buying it for them would be compensation.
I believe that the thread I started should be used for a long term solution.
As tsatryan has requested, let’s move our efforts to the thread I posted above. I will still contribute to this effort but I dont want my contribution posted as I dont want Convergent to use this as a subsitute for real compensation.
It's time these guys get real compensation in this growing website (business).
Mark
p.s. Convergent has not responded to my post yet.....doesn’t surprise me ....why wreck a good thing that he has going?
__________________
VZW, It's 2009! Time to embrace technology, not suppress it. - oops too late I've moved on over to the iPhone w/ AT$T!
p.s. Convergent has not responded to my post yet.....doesn’t surprise me ....why wreck a good thing that he has going?
Mark, I haven't seen Convergent post in the boards for a few weeks. Although his last logon was April 16, I haven't seen any posts, or gotten any responses to a couple of PM and posts that I have questions on. He's had some other responsibilities away from the forum to deal with, and has been MIA for a while, so it might take it a bit for him to respond.
__________________
-Michael
Need help setting up your i730/i830 or other WM2003/WM5 Phone, as well as the other hacks I have done, check out the MRailing Guides and Links
brassMONKEY, KBAM and others that get what I was saying.
Just so that no one misunderstands, I am among those who do get what you were saying. In fact, I don't even disagree with you. My point was - and still is - that this thread isn't the place for that discussion, and I am glad that discussion about that will move to the other thread started. Further, I don't believe that purchasing a phone will in one way or the other affect any potential decision that Convergent may or may not make. We aren't breaking any new territory here in doing this - it has been done before.
So, thanks Mark for starting the other thread. I, too, will discuss that proposal there. And, to Mark and anyone else, my apologies if I have come across in a harsh or offensive manner.
How about we get Verizon to not cripple the device, and then I'll never have to visit this forum?.... Oh wait, then what would I do with all that time?
Just so that no one misunderstands, I am among those who do get what you were saying. In fact, I don't even disagree with you. My point was - and still is - that this thread isn't the place for that discussion, and I am glad that discussion about that will move to the other thread started. Further, I don't believe that purchasing a phone will in one way or the other affect any potential decision that Convergent may or may not make. We aren't breaking any new territory here in doing this - it has been done before.
So, thanks Mark for starting the other thread. I, too, will discuss that proposal there. And, to Mark and anyone else, my apologies if I have come across in a harsh or offensive manner.
I still love you tsatryan.......
__________________
VZW, It's 2009! Time to embrace technology, not suppress it. - oops too late I've moved on over to the iPhone w/ AT$T!
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