Wow!!! I was at a seminar all day today, and this is the first chance I've had to check the boards here (blame it on no Wi Fi at the hotel and lousy 3G and EDGE reception ). Sure seems like I missed a lot today. Glad to see that there's some healthy debate going on.

__________________
-Jay
The Fine Print:Nothing in this post (or any of my other posts) is intended to constitute legal advice or the establishment of an attorney-client relationship. For purposes of this forum, I'm just another nerd like you. :-)

Jailbreak or not? I have jailbroke my original and my current 3G iPhone. Numerous times. Numerous ways. I can't even imagine having the iPhone without the jailbreak options available. Jailbreaking offers you everything from skinning and theming, to installing apps that don't meet Apple's rather self-serving requirements. I have apps from the AppStore. But I also use apps from Cydia. Frankly, since the "sake" of installer to RipDev, I wouldn't even bother with anything on that at all.

But, as has been said, to each their own. If you are happy with what the iPhone does out of the box, then by all means, it's your phone! I jailbreak because this iPhone is MYphone!

__________________
Pastor Tim Satryan
Communicating the Good News!
Visit my website - WILMINGTON first assembly of God

Is it me or is it just getting hot in here? I see the positives in both JBing and not JBing your iPhone. To say that one solution or the other is better because the apps available lack innovation or most of them are useless is a weak argument.

You don't think the App store has innovation? How about defining innovation? Is XPlane inovative? A flight sim for a PDA phone? It's available on the App store. How about any other software that uses the accelerometer? Is the software innovative or is it the device?

There are "useless" apps all over the place. Why are they useless? Because I don't find any use in them. I would find those apps in the App store and Cydia. What is truely the difference between JBing and not? Stability? Freedom? Functionality?

I was looking through the Diamond thread yesterday. It's the closest thing to the iPhone I've seen since I got this thing. Those guys have all kinds of problems that we don't. Battery life? Ha! Functioanlity? They are aleady having to hack some things that, quite frankly, they shouldn't have to. The 4 GB storage? Yeah, they still have the issues of the SD card I had on the 6700.

One of my coworkers bought the 6800 before I got this. She got a good deal and I was looking to do the same thing until I decided to give the iPhone a chance. The other day I tried to call her before going to her office. She didn't answer. When I saw her, she looked at her phone and it started a constant vibrate with a call coming in and she couldn't answer it. In fact, it was stuck. She had to soft reset it like I had to do so many times before. Thing is, she doesn't have the apps I had and it still happend.

When a call comes in on my iPhone, I feel a lot more comfortable that I will be able to answer it. If I JB it, will I feel the same way? Is it riskier? I think so. The "added" functionality I'd get by doing so just isn't worth it to me. I don't care about having a different background for my icons to cover up. I don't care about having an application that can continuously run on the background that has a possibiltiy of causing problems in my ability to answer the phone. Will that functionality eventually come? I think it will. And when it does, I think Apple will set it up so it won't be able to interfere with the rest of the functionality of this device. Why do I feel that way? Because they already do it with their applications. I can wait.

Does the App store need some work? Absolutely! But at least Apple is trying. I can't say that about HTC, samsung, microsoft, or anyone else in the WM world.

__________________
It's working for me, there must not be anything wrong!

Nobody said the app store lacks innovation. What was said is that it is short on innovation. I've seen several thousand apps through the RSS feed, and I am very comfortable making that statement. It's an opinion,yes, but it's not an assumption. Reed through the feed for a few weeks, and then report back.

As for JB v non-JB, it depends on your needs. For me, the compellng apps aren't there to justify JB (see my previous post). When they appear, I would JB.

Well my main point was that unjailbroken the iPhone is pretty much a regular cell phone with some bells and whistles. If that's how you use it then I can completely understand that, although I bet the WM tinkerer in you is always fighting you inside to jailbreak it!! I can picture the devil and angel on each shoulder both making their points.

I'll tell you what, I'm quite surprised at the instablity of the iPhone unjailbroken. I get more surprise resets, freezing and unexplained slowdowns than I did with my HTC Touch. Jailbroken for some reason it actually runs more stable, don't ask me how. Or possibly it's just with every update Apple gets that much closer to being stable.

I still see most of the apps as, well maybe not useless, but just fluff. I mean how many tip calculators can you have? Seriously. There are many apps though that are useful, but I've found the real hardcore ones are JB apps. Take Cycorder for example, just to have video recording is hugely useful. Or Winterboard/Customize, not required, but for Apple to take away the creativity of changing the screen, icons, UI around is just daft.

In the end I am still undecided overall about WM versus the iPhone. There are so many things I miss about WM, and so many limitations to the iPhone where Apple just plain out missed the boat in a big way. BUT... the iPhones screen is just so freakin nice, and of course with it jailbroken it really gives back a lot of what Apple took away with it's vanilla iPhone.

__________________
iPhone 3GS !!

Yes, this has been a very healthy debate! I think there are good points made by both sides, and in fact the reality is that there are no losers in this situation. Even an un-jailbroken iPhone is better than the competition when it comes to reliability and screen size, let alone web browsing. So everyone wins!

Thank for all of the replies, it has given me much to think about. (And yes, I do seem to like to play Devil's Advocate [Sorry, Pastor Tim] to try to see the other points of view before making what I think would be an informed decision.)

__________________
John

PDAPhoneHome Forum Moderator

I was one of the WM hackers but I never really got into changing my device using sw like PA.

Now that I have the iPhone it's really very nice right out of the box. The only apps I need are:

1. eWallet (solved)
2. Voice Command
3. Slingbox

I would consider JBing my device for 2 & 3.

__________________
VZW, It's 2009! Time to embrace technology, not suppress it. - oops too late I've moved on over to the iPhone w/ AT$T!

You wouldn't jailbreak for Slingbox (#3)?

__________________
-Jay
The Fine Print:Nothing in this post (or any of my other posts) is intended to constitute legal advice or the establishment of an attorney-client relationship. For purposes of this forum, I'm just another nerd like you. :-)

opps I just fixed my post.

thanks!

Mark

__________________
VZW, It's 2009! Time to embrace technology, not suppress it. - oops too late I've moved on over to the iPhone w/ AT$T!

Glad to help. I figured meant that you WOULD jailbreak for Sling.

__________________
-Jay
The Fine Print:Nothing in this post (or any of my other posts) is intended to constitute legal advice or the establishment of an attorney-client relationship. For purposes of this forum, I'm just another nerd like you. :-)

Jailbreaked (broke?) last night and was tethering this morning.

I am glad Apple locks down the App Store in the same way I am glad Police stop speeders. I don't want the roads full of maniacs, but I speed and simply have to accept the occaisional ticket. I like stable apps I can get easily and then I understand when my JB phone ain't so stable.

I was bummed that so far I haven't really seen all that much on Cydia that was fantastic. I like that Intelliscreen has given me a WM Home page (woot WM 6!), but it is not huge deal. Tether, video recorder, file storage, are must haves.

I would be happy with Command Line access so i can run Socks Proxy, etc. and am hoping that level of access will allow folks to get me a working BT stack (SuperDave?), Voicedialer, etc.

ASK

I have been on this site since the Audiovox Thera. I have hacked my all my phones (Samsung i600 and i700, Kyocera 6035, HP 6315, Samsung i730, Audiovox 6600, 6700, VX6800, Treo 600, 650, 700w, 755) and iPhone.

1.1.1 OTB jb and unlocked upgraded to 1.1.3 jb and unlocked.

1.1.4 bought second hand unlocked and jb

and 2 more iphones bought at second hand with 2.0 downgraded to 1.1.4.

I jail broke as soon as I got home so I could add apps and things.

__________________
Some one call IA. I'm an iPhoneaholic.

I don't usually do this, but since everyone is airing their opinions/perspectives, let me throw my hat in...

I am sure SpineDoc didn't mean it this way, but some of his comments below remind me of the plethora of uninformed posts that I read on message boards across the net that say the iPhone is just some pretty toy that was made for pre-pubescent girls. Or that the iPhone is not made (and therefore couldn't possibly be used) for 'business'...blah blah etc. I'm pretty sure most of the people making these claims and stances on the iPhone not being for business aren't even people that use their phone for real business!! (I know SpineDoc didnt say anything about it's application to business, I'm not picking on him, his post just reminded me of others that took it much further)

Well, here's my rant for the week:

I am a 26 year old entrepreneur. I own 2 businesses - both in real estate. I
have a brokerage firm that represents buyers and sellers and that I have an investment company that buys, renovates, markets, and re-sells properties (AKA Flipping Houses). My investment firm is a multi-million dollar corporation and is one of the top 3 companies in the industry in my local market....

Here's the punch line: I BASICALLY RUN BOTH BUSINESSES (and my life) WITH MY (NON JAIL-BROKEN) iPhone!!

There, I said it. In my former life (WM), I owned and heavily used the PPC 6600, 6700, 6800, and the Touch (6900).

I can say HANDS DOWN, that my iPhone has been 100x more stable than any of my WM devices.

It's amazing to me that different people with the same devices can have such varying experiences with them. My experience with the HTC Touch was HORRIBLE. Stability and reliability was a complete JOKE. It was pretty much the catalyst that drove me to the iPhone. It cost me a lot of money to switch (ETF with Sprint, new phones for me and the wife, higher monthly cell plans with ATT, etc.), but it has been WELL worth it.

My business is all about people and my non-jail broken device works wonderfully for me.

My priorities in a smart phone are:

1) Phone - HELLO?!?! This seems like a given, but at the at end of the day, how good is a smart phone if the phone part isn't reliable?? I need to know that when my phone rings, I can count on pressing a button and ANSWERING THE CALL. This is something I didn't have with my HTC devices for the most part.

2) Email/SMS - I can actually type faster on the iPhone soft keyboard with auto correct than I could with any of my WM devices (including the Touch with Touch Pal). The responsiveness of the screen is not even comparable.

3) Web Surfing - do I need to even say anything about this? OK not having flash sucks, but the sites I use and frequent don't use flash, so I haven't had a problem. I can actually bid on HUD properties and view bid results with the built in safari browser. No WM device could do this.

4) Music - prior to the iPhone, I had to carry around my phone AND my iPod. Drop another tally in the convergence column. Storing and accessing my ENTIRE music library on my phone? PRICELESS.

5) The rest... - I have found some very useful apps in the app store. I quickly calculate mortgage payments with Loan Shark. I use AirShairing to view excel docs in the field (lockbox codes, sales prices, inventory, etc). I could keep going...the app store seems to be getting better and better to me.


In summary, for my tech-saavy, communication, and media centered lifestyle - the non-jailbroken iPhone is AMAZING.

Is it perfect? No. Nothing is perfect. I bet we could all sit around and dream up 'the perfect wife' or the perfect house or the perfect job...it doesn't exist!! We all take the good with the bad. Life is about compromises, priorities, and balance. For me, I can live without cut/paste, voice dialing, task syncing, tinkering with every setting, more freedom on apps, etc. Would I like (love) these things? SURE.

But is the non-jail broken iPhone just a 'regular cell phone with some bells and whistles'? I think not.

I do appreciate and respect other people's differing opinions and perspectives on the iPhone and JB vs Non JB. This was just my story....albeit a bit long winded...

Saying you use it for business doesn't clear the air. If your business involved just one website that Safari could not read, it would be a deal breaker. If your business took in email in just one format that the iPhone couldn't read, it would be useless to you. However, if your business flowed in harmony with the iPhone, it would be fine.

The iPhone has limitations and jailbreaking opens some of the doors, but not all of them. What works for some people may be totally useless to others. It doesn't make one party right or the other parry wrong.

We are sort of saying the same thing.

It clears the air for me. I don't really care how well my phone works for anyone else. We have all been been giving our *personal* experiences with the phone.

And it makes me roll my eyes when people give the blanket statement that the iPhone is not for 'business users'. Or that a non-jail broken iPhone is just a phone with some fluff.

I don't live in a world of hypotheticals. 'If' this or 'If' that doesn't really matter to me. In my world, it works for me very well. Much better than the 'best' of the WM smart phones. This was the point I was trying to make.

Obviously, what works for one guy doesn't necessarily work for the next.

I was certainly not trying to say that I was 'right'. I just wanted to give my perspective and opinion on these issues.

Cheers,

-CMK

For all you former WM users, here's another great reason to Jailbreak - PdaNet by JuneFabrics has just been released - for FREE - to any iPhone user, installable through Cydia.

I just downloaded and installed it - it works perfectly and flawlessly on my Vista computer.

Shhhhhh..... don't anyone tell AT&T now!

__________________
Pastor Tim Satryan
Communicating the Good News!
Visit my website - WILMINGTON first assembly of God

It's quite interesting to banter back and forth this friendly debate. I believe it only serves to improve our experiences and perceptions with all of these fine devices.

I believe you did in fact take the meaning of my post in a different direction than it was intended. At the end of the day my point was I don't see an unjailbroken iPhone much different than a "regular" modern cell phone. Yes I understand how nice the internet browser is, and I did make that point as well. Most (I'm not claiming all) programs available can also be found in java apps. Even games. Yes the iPhone is still better than a regular cell phone, but not by a margin that would necessarily improve my use of it in terms of both business and pleasure.

Now my background with WM phones are that I used to use them to write patient encounter notes and reports before I settled on my mini tablet PC. I seriously used to write out 40-50 encounter notes per day, and 5-10 multi page reports all on my WM device. I was able to multi fill custom made medical forms, as well as electronically upload them to a server for processing and electronic referral to an insurance company. I make no bones about my disdain for hardware keyboards and my great love for handwriting recognition.

Now in terms of stability, I'm fascinated by the difference of stability in our units. My HTC Touch was pretty rock solid, needing the usual soft reboot every couple of days and having occasional glitches. In all honesty my iPhone is much more glitchy. I can be browsing safari and it will suddenly exit out. Sometimes it will reboot while in an app. Sometimes it runs super slowly, especially when opening text messaging, I can sit there for 10 or more seconds looking at a loading screen. I'm not saying either phone was horrible or great, but I find them extremely comparable in terms of stability versus glitchiness. Let me be clear here, this is on a NON jailbroken iPhone.

1) Phone: I do agree with you here, and thats why I kept the iPhone. In terms of a phone first, Apple did a great job, well if you look past the 3g problems, reception problems, dropped calls problems, etc etc. which supposedly gotten fixed in 2.1. I honestly enjoy good reception in my area and don't have many complaints.

2) Text entry. I will wholeheartedly disagree here, but not necessarily disagreeing, more expounding on a different method and results from practice. Handwriting recognition is the way to go IMO, thats why the Newton had it way back when. I think keyboards are a huge step backwards IMO, but thats my opinion. They take up bulk, make the device thicker, and in some cases goofy looking like the G1. Technology should be dedicated to improving handwriting recogniton IMO. BUT... within the terms of a WM hardware keyboard and the iPhone soft keyboard there is no comparison, no matter how much Apples soft keyboard is sugarcoated there is no way it keeps up with a hardware keyboard. Although I must say sometimes I am quite impressed with the autocorrect, and other times completely frustrated by it.

3) The browser is nice, but overrated IMO in light of other browsers that perform nearly as well such as Opera mini/mobile and other newcomers to the party. Even mobile IE is nowhere near as bad as made out to be. Safari is the winner here, but by a nose IMO, and fast being overtaken.

4) Music. This is a funny one for me. Without sling media, Orb (unjailbroken mind you), without satellite music, etc etc I feel limited by my 8/16gb of music and video. Don't even get me started on A2DP, this is a HUGE omission and step backwards. WM was a MUCH more open platform when it came to this and I honestly feel as if I've taken a huge step backwards in terms of multimedia. Once again my opinion.

5) There is some very nice stuff in the app store. But I have yet to see an office app, ie: Word, excel, etc etc. Hell I won't start on copy/paste which at this point doesnt seem to be a technical limitation, but rather a stubborn sticking point with Apple. Now we can compare the differences in our businesses, but for me the iPhone lost 99% of the functionality in terms of business that my WM device had.

The bottom line is that I still think the iPhone in terms of it's phone functions is not much different than a "regular" cell phone in its unjailbroken state. It is better, but not by a mile IMO. So why do I keep my iPhone instead of returning to my WM device? Because the phone functions are done nicely, and mostly because of the BEAUTIFUL screen, I still cant get over how nice it is. I've migrated over most of my business functions to my mini tablet PC over the last couple of years and find I can give up many of the power features of the WM platform.

Oh and of course my whole point is that jailbroken MUCH of that functionality begins to return. If jailbreaking did not exist I would have ran straight back to the Apple store and returned the iPhone. Most of my above gripes have been pacified by jailbreaking the phone, it truly shines once jailbroken and becomes an almost different phone. Once again this is my opinion based on my particular wants and needs.

Hopefully that clears up my meaning in this friendly debate.

__________________
iPhone 3GS !!

@SpineDoc: Try Simplify Media to get your Orb-like music streaming. Works great for me!

I am now officialy JBed!

__________________
VZW, It's 2009! Time to embrace technology, not suppress it. - oops too late I've moved on over to the iPhone w/ AT$T!

Congratulations, Mark!

__________________
-Jay
The Fine Print:Nothing in this post (or any of my other posts) is intended to constitute legal advice or the establishment of an attorney-client relationship. For purposes of this forum, I'm just another nerd like you. :-)